Bo Mcdonald: [00:00:00] Something I do for our staff. To connect the dots for your brother in law, we ask each one of our clients, tell us about a member story. Every month we ask all of our clients for that. And, you know, for our graphic designers, our social media folks, they’re not client facing. So sometimes, you know, you can see that as a widget.

I need to do this thing. It’s my job. But when we bring those member stories back, or we invite the CEO to come into one of our meetings and share that member story, you start to see a tear on the Zoom screen. And we’re like, you were a part of that. Like that social media post you created hit that person and brought them into the credit union and you just changed their life, man.

Like you, you might think it’s just a social media post but you, you impacted that person. That’s pretty cool to connect the dots like that.

​[00:01:00] [00:02:00]

Josh DeTar: Welcome to another episode of the digital banking podcast. My guest today is Bo McDonald, the founder and president of Your Marketing Co. Funny story about how Bo and I met, but we’ll get into that later. The cliff notes are Bo has very little interest in small talk. What does that mean though? That he doesn’t want to talk to people?

Actually, quite the opposite. He craves talking to people, but in genuinely meaningful conversation. Not just, Hey, how are you? How’s the [00:03:00] weather? Oh, I see you picked the chicken over the steak. It’s having deep conversations to truly get to know someone, build a relationship and find a connection. Bo said this also allows for conversations to be truthful.

Which is really important. We need to be open and able to talk about the good, the bad, and the ugly in a healthy way. And to do that, you have to have built trust in a relationship. Or at least in the early parts of forming the relationship, demonstrate a kind soul with open ears and an open heart. Again, a part of the story of why we’re here today.

Bo has a longstanding history with credit unions from his dad’s story to his own to now both sitting on the board of a small credit union to servicing credit unions professionally as well. Bo is dedicated to making impacts and filling his soul with positivity and goodness through travel, art, culture, food, and finding ways to give back and provide those [00:04:00] valuable life experiences to others as well. And I have a super exciting conversation teed up today about no joy for credit unions below 10 billion in assets. So with that, let’s jump right in.

Bo, welcome to the podcast.

Bo: Oh, that was clickbait right there. No joy under 10 billion. That is the, oh, this is going to be fun.

Josh: Well, I mean that leads right into like why we’re here today. So funny story. Um, so as a part of one of the areas of wanting to bring about just open conversation through content, news stories, we have things like our podcast, but one of the other things that we also do is post things like industry news, articles, insights.

We allow people to do op eds. And one of the op eds that we ran was an op ed that had a total click baity title. And I usually shy away from those, but for whatever reason, like I let our marketing team run with [00:05:00] this one and the title literally was no joy below 10 billion in assets. And we posted it on LinkedIn and Bo gets on all fired up and he’s like, hold on a minute.

He’s like, there’s a lot of joy in credit unions under 10 billion in assets. And kind of back to the intro that I was giving with you, right, that spun off a whole separate conversation between Bo and I. And what I really appreciated about Bo is so many times, and you probably experienced this too, right?

Like you post something on social media. And people immediately go to a negative, they assume the worst intent, right, and, and then they’re never even open to a conversation about it. And immediately, Beau and I were able to have this conversation. We jumped on the phone and we talked through, like, what did that really mean?

And we ended up having a really awesome conversation that we were like, this needs to turn into a podcast. Um, so one, I just, I wanted to say thank you. Like I genuinely mean that. I appreciate that in this day and [00:06:00] age of social media that like we can actually have what we thought because of a click baity title looked like very different opinions, but actually we have the exact same opinion.

We just had to talk through it,

Bo: We just got there different ways.

Josh: We just get there from different ways. Exactly. Um, so we’re, we’re going to kind of park that and we’ll come back and talk a little bit more about that whole no joy under 10 billion. And what did we really mean by that? But I think for starters, it’d be really cool to kind of talk us through a little bit of your life story of, of why credit unions are so, uh, important to you.

And I think this will also tell a lot about why you would get so fired up about helping small credit unions to thrive in a difficult environment. So, um, yeah, maybe tell us a little bit about your credit union experience, Beau.

Bo: Yeah. Uh, it started at a very young age. You know, when, when you’re growing up third, fourth grade, what do you want to be? I’m going to be a credit union marketer. That was not my [00:07:00] answer. I wanted to be a radio DJ and I did that for a little bit, but my experience with credit unions goes back to that age when, when I saw my father.

Um, after, after a divorce, struggling financially and the credit union stepped up and had some tough conversations with him and offered to help him if he would help himself. And, you know, the short of that is if that one teller at the credit union hadn’t built a relationship with him. And asked him a question.

I always use the example. She didn’t cross sell him the credit card that she was supposed to cross sell people that week. That would have put him in worse financial situation. She was just being a human and said, Paul, you look tired. What’s going on? And he shared the story about working multiple jobs just to, you know, try to make ends meet.

And when they finally got down to it, it was his credit card debt. And the credit union offered to help him with that. And I look at the ripple effect that that had, not [00:08:00] only on his life, where, you know, he’s retired and in a beautiful home in Asheville, North Carolina now. Would he have been able to do that if that teller hadn’t had inserted herself into his life and just offered help?

I don’t know. You can armchair quarterback that, but, but I truly believe that that was a game changer, a life changer for him. And the ripple effect into my generation, having seen him struggle with that and me saying, Yeah, I’m not going to repeat those. Mistakes. Uh, you know what the credit union did for him and therefore me.

I’m, I’m passionate about that and I want to, I want to sit on the rooftop and just scream to everyone that will listen. It doesn’t have to be that way. We can help you.

Josh: Isn’t it funny how many people I think that are in our industry, right? That either work at credit unions or work for companies that service credit unions. Like so many of us have that story. And I think that’s why for a lot of us, we’re so [00:09:00] passionate about what we do. Is it’s like, I know the impact that this had for me or somebody like me or somebody in my circle.

And I’m like, I want, I want to, you know, exponentially compound that impact. Like how rad would it be if every single person in my neighborhood, in my County, in my town, in my state, in my country, you know, had somebody in their corner, like a credit union supporting their financial health. And you’re like, yeah, it sounds all Kumbaya, but.

Sounds pretty good.

Bo: Yeah,

Josh: So then, so then you had your own kind of similar experience, right?

Bo: I did at the age of 18, despite me saying I’m not going to repeat his mistakes. What happens when you turn 18, you get that first Capital One card in the mail, and they’re just shoving it in your face saying, take this thing, and you realize, I’m an adult now, I’ve got my first credit card, and I just did the same thing my father did.

I started swiping the credit card, and I remember the point that I realized, wait, I’ve got to, I’ve got to pay [00:10:00] this thing back. I was at a Denny’s at like one in the morning after my air shift with some friends, and my card declined. I’m like, what do you mean it declined? Why would this thing decline? Well, because there’s a limit on it, and if you don’t pay the bill, they’re gonna shut it off.

I didn’t comprehend that at the tender age of, of 18. Uh, and, and that was the wake up. Luckily, the balance was only like 500 bucks, which was a lot for me at 18 years old. Uh, but it was enough to be a wake up call to say, wait a minute. I, I wasn’t gonna repeat that. That my father went through. I better get, get myself together and, uh, you know, two steps even beyond that working in radio, the station I was working at ran the Dave Ramsey show.

And this is back when, before he was really big, it was the early 2000s. And I was just listening. I’m like, this is common sense stuff. I probably don’t need a car loan. I need to save some money. And I’ve just lived under that ever since, if I can’t pay cash for it, with the exception of a [00:11:00] house, you know, you follow the, the Dave Ramsey rules.

And, um, I think it was right in the middle of COVID in, uh, in 2020. And I do some real estate investing and I was on a call with some other investors and they were. freaking out that their tenants couldn’t pay rent. They’ve got these mortgages due and I’m sitting here thinking, how lucky am I that I don’t have a mortgage on this property, that I have a tenant that can’t pay rent because they’re out of work and I can, I can work with them.

I don’t have to worry about what’s going to happen to me. So just that ripple effect of, you know, what my father went through with the credit union helped him with. And you know, what I learned from that and other smart folks, how it’s blessed me and how I’ve enabled it. Yeah,

Josh: know, you said something that I find really interesting that, you know, when you were at Denny’s at one in the morning. That’s not what I, although I do find that interesting too. That’s probably a separate podcast. But, um, that [00:12:00] 500 bucks was a lot to you. Right. Think of how many people 500 bucks is a lot of money.

Um, what was, Oh man, I wish I could regurgitate the stat off the top of my head. I just saw an update to the percentage of people that could not handle a 1, 000 surprise expense right now in America. It’s astronomical. It’s terrifying. Right. So yeah, so 500 bucks even today. Is a lot, like a lot of people would struggle to recover 500 bucks.

And, so, I think a lot of times we think in terms of, um, you know, gross amounts. Like, ah, 500 bucks, it’s not that big of a deal. But when that represents a significant percentage of somebody’s available, spendable income, the thought of being able to pay back that Denny’s meal It’s months, right? And then to your point, like that has a ripple effect that just then puts them into [00:13:00] a lot of times things like predatory lending and payday loans and, and this thing just snowballs.

Whereas if we caught it really, really early and somebody had been there to, I love the way you said it, right? Like just be human with them and be like, you know what, I’m not going to sell you the product. You know what they might actually need is a product. Right. That might be the solution. It’s a product, but it’s like, I’m just going to come at this and be a human.

And

Bo: You use the word cross sell. And, you know, the, the credit union staff will break out in a cold sweat and get the shakes and be like, I’m not a salesperson. And I would share the story of my father. I’m like, you don’t have to sell. Just how are you?

How are you doing, Paul? You look tired. Just ask the question and let them open up. And then. If you find a problem, then you can solve it. And

Josh: one of the things credit unions do really, really well is, [00:14:00] um, kind of like what you were saying about how, you know, to be able to have those difficult conversations with somebody, you have to build trust. You have to build a genuine relationship. But credit unions are actually able to do that in something that I argue is very scary for most people, right?

And that’s finances. Nobody wants to talk about it. Um, and we, we in America have not cultivated a good culture of talking about our finances, our financial health, and um, you know, positive and negative products and services and approaches. And, and I’m, I’m not talking about it like a very small level. I’m talking about just at the global scale.

Like I don’t think we’ve done a good job of that. And so, um, just like you, I mean, I was, I was the same boat, right? Like that’s why I’m so passionate about credit unions. I kept swiping a debit card and kept getting overdrafts and overdraft fees until, you know, somebody at Bank of America literally told me to take my business somewhere else. And, uh, and I was lucky enough to work for a company that was the seg of a credit [00:15:00] union. And one of the guys I work with went, you know, had a genuine conversation with me. I was like, Hey dude, you look, you look sad. And I was like, yeah, like I literally don’t know how to pay my bills. I don’t know. I’m like, I’m struggling. And turn me on to the credit union and the credit union built a relationship with me and was able to sit me down and go, Josh, you’re an idiot, but it’s okay. We love you. We’re going to take care of you. Right? But like the attitude and the perspective that they came from, if I went into no offense, uh, you know, insert big bank name here. It just wouldn’t be that kind of conversation, I don’t think, right? Like, maybe

Bo: think about the difference.

Josh: right people that care that still work there. Like, I’m not saying that everybody at Wells Fargo or Chase or B of A’s is, doesn’t care, right? But just the overall culture of a small credit union is going to be very different.

And the conversations can be different.

Bo: Just think about the difference that you just shared. When Bank of America said, Take your business elsewhere. [00:16:00] Versus, Hey Josh, you’re an idiot. Let us help you with this.

Josh: Yeah.

Bo: Very, very different of, you know, We don’t even want to deal with you, Versus, let me help you.

Josh: let me help you. Yeah. Um, no. And so, so that kind of got you into, uh, all right, I watched, I watched this have a positive impact for my dad. I made the same mistakes, but then I got, you know, at least I went down the same path and did the positive path through the credit union, saw the value out of that.

So then how did you, cause now you actually even serve on the board of a credit union, right? Like how did that come about?

Bo: Yeah, so, uh, Gosh, early 2000s back when I was still, young and stupid and didn’t know what failure meant. Uh, I left radio and started a, a marketing firm and we were all over the place. We were doing real estate. We were doing car dealers. We were doing hospitality, hotels, resorts, and then, you know, financial mess of 2008 happens and the very first [00:17:00] client that ever signed was a credit union and that CEO said, you know, there’s some other struggling credit unions out there.

Do you mind if I pass your name on? I’m like, No, I love you guys. I’ve always, I’ve always been a member of a credit union. I shared my dad’s story. And in 2008, that was kind of the turn where we just started working with credit unions. I’m like this, I never thought about just working with credit unions, but that’d be cool if I could make a living doing that.

Well, here we are almost, you know, 20 years later, being able to do that. The one credit union that we were working with here in South Carolina, they were a single seg credit union. And. The real estate company in Japan called them and said, Hey, I see you have three offices in some of our factories and you’re not paying rent.

We don’t know why we have a bank getting rent free space, but you got 30 days. Get out. And I remember our CEO like, what do we do? [00:18:00] And that kind of, you know, turned the credit union up on its, on its head. What, what do we do? So I joined the supervisory and the board. I was kind of the first board member coming on outside of that seg to try to help us get into the community and figure out who are we going to be, what are we going to do, and, and we’re, we’re still there.

A couple years later, still dipping our toe in the water figuring out what, what does this change look like, but we’ve made it.

Josh: That’s super cool. Well I think that’s gonna also, when we come back to this whole, uh, what brought us here, that’s a part of that, right? But, um, you know I thought, as you were talking, I thought you’d find this interesting. Um, two nights ago, my brother in law, um, And his wife and their two kids were over for dinner here at our house and kids are playing and, um, and my brother in law, I don’t know, hopefully he never listens to this podcast, but I would never say anything negative anyway about him.

Um, I love him to death. He’s incredibly intelligent and [00:19:00] he, um, he’s done a couple of things out of college. He’s significantly younger than my wife and I. Um, and still kind of like trying to figure out what he wants to do, which I’d argue, I think we all do until the day we die, but,

Bo: Yeah.

Josh: um, but he’s doing real estate right now and you can imagine that’s had some serious ups and downs, right?

And he’s a, um, sole provider for the family, two kids. So they’re trying to figure out one, just how do they manage finances? So we have, you know, I’m kind of helping him with just that conversation. Um, and. But at the same time, he’s like, Hey, do I, do I start thinking about different industries and all of this?

And I keep subtly sending him some job postings from cool companies in our industry. And, um, cause my brother in law’s big on like community shops, small, that kind of thing. And I’m like, bro, you were like, you were built for credit unions. Like, what are you doing?

Bo: He doesn’t even know it.

Josh: uh, and so what’s funny is the other night, like it finally came to a head and we ended up having this really interesting conversation about it.[00:20:00]

And he was like, yeah, I don’t know. He’s like, because you’re in FinTech, right? And I was like, well, kind of. I was like, you could kind of qualify us as FinTech. I was like, I’d argue that term is a little, like, generic. And, but, sure. We provide technology to financial institutions. So, we’re FinTech. And he was like, I don’t know why.

He’s like, that just like, gives me the, like, weird spidey tingling. He’s like, I just don’t like it. It just sounds like, not something I’d be interested in. And I was like, really? Why? And so we kind of start having a conversation about it and he was like, well, why do you, he’s like, you obviously love your job and he’s like, and you’re trying to get me into this industry.

He’s like, why? And I was like, well, one, like I love my company and I love what I get to do. I was like, but weirdly enough, the biggest value for me. I said is who I service is credit unions and community banks who I argue are having the biggest positive impacts in our communities. And so I almost get to [00:21:00] like through osmosis of them feel good that I’m helping the communities, right?

Cause like if I help them and they help the communities and it was weird, but it was like this whole light bulb moment. Like he and I’ve talked about this for forever and that was the first time that really sunk in for him. And he was like, Oh, that’s actually kind of cool. That totally aligns with like my vibe.

And so it’s like totally changed the thought process on the whole thing. But, and it was just, it’s about the impact that, you know, credit unions, community banks, the people that are actually like boots on the ground care about the communities. Um, like the excitement of fulfilling that kind of full circle, helping people process, you know,

Bo: Something I do for our staff. To connect the dots for your brother in law, we ask each one of our clients, tell us about a member story. Every month we ask all of our clients for that. And, you know, for our graphic designers, our social media folks, they’re not [00:22:00] client facing. So sometimes, you know, you can see that as a widget.

I need to do this thing. It’s my job. But when we bring those member stories back, or we invite the CEO to come into one of our meetings and share that member story, And, you know, you start to see a tear on the Zoom screen. And we’re like, you were a part of that. Like that social media post you created hit that person and brought them into the credit union and you just changed their life, man.

Like you, you might think it’s just a social media post but you, you impacted that person. That’s pretty cool to connect the dots like that.

Josh: that’s wild, huh? I know. I tell you what, like, if you ever, why have you ever want to like, you know, need to buy stock and tissue, just listen to member stories from, from people at credit unions. Um, you know what I think too, that’s why I always love talking to folks like yourself, right. That are focused on kind of the, um, the marketing and the awareness and the [00:23:00] evangelism of credit unions, because I think that’s such a huge missed opportunity.

Um, you know, I, I, I’m putting words in your mouth, but I wouldn’t be surprised if you agree with me on this one too. I don’t see a lot of credit unions that are telling those stories. And really doing it well because I argue those are the kinds of stories that are going to pull people in. Not that you have the best rate on an auto loan.

Yeah, we’ve got to play that card. We’ve got to do that. Yes. That’s going to get some of the transactional memberships. And Hey, if you’re just looking for a big indirect auto portfolio, great. Then you’re going to win on rates. Don’t get me wrong. I agree a hundred percent. Right. But what’s going to get those like longterm sticky primary Financial institution members that are going to tell their friends.

It’s true. Those sob stories. Like, I’m sorry, but it is

Bo: Yeah, it’s, we don’t see it all the time, but I see it so often when we start working with a new client, like we go on, we lock him in a room for two days and we just, [00:24:00] we tear everything apart. And more often than not, on day one before we even start, I hear, we don’t know who we are. We don’t have a story.

And, as we start hearing things through, through that day. And I start putting the pieces together, I realize you have a story, but you’re so damn humble. And you’re doing the right thing. You’re doing what a credit union should be doing. You just don’t think that’s special, because you’re doing what you should be doing.

You have a story. We, all these things you’ve said, we’ve just got to piece it together. And why aren’t they telling their story? Some of them just don’t have a story. Some of them have gotten off track. And we’ll leave that over on this side, but there’s those that they’re doing the right thing. They have the stories, but they don’t share it because they’re just doing what they think they should be doing.

It’s nothing special to them. They don’t see it. They’re so humble.

Josh: I love [00:25:00] that you bring that up and said that because I’ve had that conversation with a friend who worked at a credit union once and same kind of thing. Like they were telling me all these amazing stories. I was like, this is incredible. Why are you guys not blasting this? And like, what do you mean?

That was just like Tuesday. That was the, like, kind of, they had that same realization. They’re like, this is just what we do. This is not special. I’m like, no, no, this is special. Trust me. Like this is special.

Bo: They’re doing what credit unions should be doing, what they were created for. They may be doing differently, but, but yeah, how do you, how do you get those member stories? And connect it to people like your, your brother in law. The members, the, the Paul’s that might, you know, my father’s that, that are sitting there with some financial struggle.

How do you, you know, it’s not going to be our rates as low as, or we have good rates and good service. It’s, Hey, we did this thing. We can do this thing for you.

Josh: Yep. Uh, fun fact. My brother in law’s name is Paul too. So maybe this will be a, we’ll revisit this story like 10 years from [00:26:00] now and see if it.

Bo: New podcast, the two Paul’s.

Josh: The two Paul’s No, but I think that really does set up you know what what brought us together and the the conversation that connected the two of us is I think both of us You can tell wholeheartedly believe there is a metric crapload of opportunity for credit unions And I think it’s a really special opportunity And, um, and it’s one that provides real meaningful impact in people’s lives. But it’s a hard time to be a small credit union. And, you know, the, the article that we posted was an op ed. Um, that was written essentially making the statement that if you’re below 10 billion in assets, like that’s kind of the new benchmark for being able to say, all right, we’ve got money, we’ve got resources, we’ve got tools, we’ve got providers that will listen to us, we’ve got a seat [00:27:00] at the table, like we’ve got, you know, all of our stuff figured out, we’ve got good documentation, we’ve got good products and a good portfolio, we’ve got good brand awareness and reach.

And anything below that, like you’re just fighting to break through the noise. You’re fighting to stay, quite frankly, you know, in the black, you’re fighting to grow membership. Right. And so, you know, like we were talking about the click baity title is no joy, but it’s not necessarily, there’s not a lot of fun to be had.

It’s that it’s really freaking hard to be a small credit union right now. Um, and so, you know, Bo, I’m just, I’m curious, when you originally saw that, like, what were the first things that were kind of going through your mind and, and why were you so fired up about, um, like, small credit unions have a place and we need to make sure they survive?

That’s [00:28:00] cool.

Bo: I have six rules for strategic planning with our clients. One of those six is, No blanket statements. So the first gray haired board member that says, Oh, these lazy millennials living in mom’s basement. Show me the data that 100 percent of millennials are all lazy living in mom’s basement. You’re one experience.

So when I saw the headline, I’m like, Wait a minute. I’m thinking of, uh, I’m going to name drop fake Crocker, the CEO of Hope South. We’ve been with her for about 13 years. She has an incredible story. There were about 10 million, uh, Back in the day, 15 ish years ago, and Faye was just kind of treading along.

She was doing an okay job at her credit unit. They were in Abbeville County in South Carolina, 13 percent unemployment, a county of 23, 000 people. The entire county is in the middle of rural America. There’s nothing around it. And she ended up in a medically [00:29:00] induced coma in Charleston for about six months.

And when she came back, she kind of had a new lease on life and she’s like, we’re going to do something with this credit. And I remember she took her board away for three days and had some tough conversations. We either do something with this or we merge and everyone was adamant. We need to do something with this.

And she said, then we better make some bold decisions because what we’re doing is not going to allow us to survive. And we developed a mission for that. That rural, economically depressed county that we were going to be the source of financial hope for our friends and neighbors. And we had to define what does that mean?

And it took a lot of heartburn of, we’re going to have to take some risk, we’re going to have to do things differently. And here they are, a little over 30 million in assets now, and Fay has led them through many phases. And when I think, [00:30:00] under 10 billion, you just can’t make it. 2 percent ROA, double digit loan growth, membership growth, because they’re providing hope.

They’re doing something different. And, and I could spend the next hour name dropping people like Pamela Stelly at Maple and Ryan at Great Meadow that have gone into communities where banks don’t want to be. And they’re doing this cool stuff, they’re doing it differently. And, and we can talk about the rosy side.

Maybe that’s, you know, that’s where I get passionate. They’re doing the work. But to your point, it’s some long hours. It’s, it’s some, some tears. It’s, you know, days of, why am I doing this? You know, and I, I don’t always talk about that side of it. I always like to look at the rosy side of it. What are, what are the results?

What are they doing? What is their impact? But, you know, for, for every story like that, every member’s story, it’s, it’s late nights in the office. It’s, you know, two weeks of examiners in [00:31:00] there tearing things apart. It’s, you know, long board meetings. You know, we need to invest in this technology. How are we gonna keep up with this?

So, you know, I think what that article did, what this conversation did for me was to, you know, dig under the surface of, you know, I always like to talk about here’s the impact they’re having in the community. Here’s the results they’re getting, but we don’t see under that iceberg. You’ve probably seen that visual.

It’s all it’s that motivational quote on LinkedIn. You see this, the peak of the ice, but what’s under the water? It’s all the stuff that it takes to get us there and it’s, it’s not easy.

Josh: Mm-hmm.

Bo: And it’s not getting any easier.

Josh: you know, I love that you, uh, you shout out Ryan from Great Meadow. ’cause I know Ryan, uh, well,

Bo: I think he might have emailed you about that same article.

Josh: yeah, he did. What’s funny is I, so I actually didn’t realize that you guys were connected, but he emailed me about it too, and Ryan and I had a great conversation about it on the side too. Um, but, um, so that now that connects the dots for me.

Um, [00:32:00] but I love that you use that example too. Cause I agree. Like, if you know, Ryan, well, you know, That he does not have like a just mail it in credit union where they’re like, we can just keep doing what we’ve always been doing. We’re crushing it. We’re doing great. Like he’s having to work. His whole team works.

And I can’t tell you how many times I’ve talked to Ryan and he’s like, yeah, man, like I’m, I’m working, but I’m driving my son to hockey practice and then like I’m going to get home and I got to do this thing and that is somebody who is just He’s unequivocally committed to doing the under the iceberg because he will not accept anything less than his credit union making an impact in his community, right?

And so I think that’s why, like, I love that this story specifically sparked so much good conversation because like you were saying, right, I mean, we, if we’re never, if we’re always afraid to have the hard conversations, then they take us by surprise.

Bo: Yeah.[00:33:00]

Josh: And I, I don’t know when I adopted this bow, but I would say in the last couple of years, like I’ve, I’ve actually made made a physical note to try and be better about this. And it’s have the hard conversation today as opposed to tomorrow, because it’s going to be a lot harder tomorrow. Right. And it’s like, I mean, perfect case in point. I, if I, you know, need to have a hard conversation with my wife about. Um, you know, I, I don’t like the way she loads the dishwasher or something.

I don’t know, picking something easy here. Um, right. If I just say the first time she loads the dishwasher in a way I don’t like, like, Hey, I don’t like the way you load the dishwasher. Is there a reason why you load it that way? She’s like, Oh yeah, I load it this way cause it’s easier for me to do this.

And then we have a conversation about it. And like, it’s kind of hard. Cause I tell my wife, I don’t like the way she does something. Right. But we get through it. But man, if I let that sucker fester for years. And for years, I build up this resentment to how she loads the dishwasher, then probably how that conversation is going to happen is it’s going to come to a head when I explode in the [00:34:00] kitchen on her and it’s not going to be a healthy dialogue,

Bo: Yeah.

Josh: And same kind of thing. Like if we just, if we don’t talk about, um, the hard conversations, then I think what happens is we talk about this all the time. Is the blockbuster Netflix example, right? We talk about that example all the time, but then I think a lot of times we’re not willing to say, okay, so are we actually willing to sit around the room and go, Hey, you know what?

It’s getting really hard to get people to come in and get DVDs from us and somebody is trying to do it differently. Do we need to change the way we’re thinking?

Bo: Yeah. You know, it’s, I won’t peel back the curtain too much, but in, in 2023, when we were coming up on our 15 year anniversary, I had to go to my leadership team and say, we were once the rebels. Like we, this thing we’re doing, there were people doing it, but we came in and did it differently. And we, we set the tone for what is outsourced marketing and credit unions.

[00:35:00] And now we’re the only guys we’ve been around for 15 years. At some point, someone’s going to come in and say, Look at, look at these old guys doing it the way they did 15 years ago. We can do it better. We can do it faster. We can do it cheaper. And, and I said, not on my watch. And, and I think that’s the same thing for credit unions.

We’re afraid to think about it differently. And say what, you know, who’s going to eat our lunch. And, and what do we do about it? Because it, one, it takes the boards. The ability to have that conversation and that’s scary. You know, I always talk about fear, you know, when a board is resistant to change the resistant technology, they’re resistant to changing a business model.

I don’t think it’s because they’re bad people. It’s ignorant and I don’t mean that in a bad way. I mean in a where does fear come from? You don’t have there’s a knowledge gap somewhere. So what do [00:36:00] you instantly do you just? Put up the, stop, nope, we’re not going to do that. Instead of saying, let’s gain perspective.

What, what is this change entail? What does this mean? Let me get comfortable with it. So I have all the facts. And then I can make a decision. And I, I think that’s what’s, that’s what’s holding a lot of credit unions back today.

Josh: Yeah. Well, I think that’s why we encourage that, that healthy dialogue and that healthy kind of challenge culture. You’ve got to be able to like have that as a part of your internal culture. And again, like not to keep harping on it, but that’s what I thought was really cool that came out of this conversation about that article is, I think that. You’d be really, really hard pressed to convince me that it’s really, really easy to run a small credit union right now.

Bo: Yeah.

Josh: think it is. I talk to him all the time. You talk to him all the time. We both sit on boards of small credit unions. Like I’ve seen the internal workings like this stuff is not easy, but it [00:37:00] doesn’t mean that there aren’t people that are crazy passionate and committed to seeing it succeed and are going to.

Unequivocally, like a, like a Ryan, right? Like I know that dude’s going to succeed, period. And the story simply because he’ll just outwork everybody if that’s what it takes. Right. And so will his team. And so it’s not that it’s impossible. And I love your, your kind of statement. Like there are no blanket statements.

There’s no absolute truths to this stuff. Like, but it’s hard. It’s hard to be a small credit union, but I think for the right people, There’s actually a lot of joy in it being hard because that’s where the greatest reward comes from, right? Like, uh, I’m sorry, I’m blanking on her name. Please, please tell me again.

But the, the credit union CEO who, um, who kind of had the, the life epiphany and the change, um,

Bo: uh, fake Crocker. Yeah.

Josh: So like. You know, she said, Hey, you know what, we’re not going to keep doing things the way that we’ve always done them. We’re going to change. [00:38:00] We’re going to have the hard conversation today as opposed to tomorrow when it’s too late.

And we are going to figure out through grit, determination, through, you know, changing the status quo for who we are. We’re going to figure out how to keep doing what’s important to us in this corridor mission, which is, you know, helping the community that we serve. That’s pretty cool. There’s a lot of opportunity in that.

But it comes with having to have some hard conversations, and having to put in some work. Like, it just, it is what it is.

Bo: Yeah. It’s a tough conversation, but, you know, one of my favorite things to do when I encounter a board that’s resistant to change. And I know they care about the credit union. I have to pause and say, Jim, board member, whatever your name is, tell me about when you joined the credit union 30 years ago. And you get those passionate stories about, you know, I first started working for this company and, and, My boss [00:39:00] said I had to join the credit union, so I joined the credit union, because we didn’t have to mark it back then.

We just had the HR person take you by the hand, walk you into the office, and you just opened up your account. That’s, it was magic. And, and I get such great stories about, you know, my first car, and they helped me do this thing. And when I have to point it back and say, Why would you keep the next generation from having the same opportunity? You’re holding the credit union so close to your heart. You don’t want to change. You don’t want to think about.

You had this awesome opportunity that changed your life. Why wouldn’t you give that to the next generation?

Josh: Mm hmm.

Bo: And that starts to open up the conversation of, well, well, I’m not doing that. Let’s, let’s think about the decisions or not, or not making decisions and how that’s impacting your ability to, to serve that next generation.

That same story you just gave me. isn’t going to be possible if we don’t make changes.

Josh: Yeah. [00:40:00] And like you said, I mean, and sometimes those changes, we avoid simply because of fear of, I don’t know what I don’t know. Um, you know, it’s actually really cool how this worked out, I didn’t plan it this way. But, um, if you’re listening to this episode and you haven’t already listened to the one that came before it, please go listen to that next.

And it’s with Melanie Kennedy, um, and Melanie’s credit union went full digital, closed all their branches. And they did it pre pandemic, it kind of funny story. She tells it in the podcast, how the pandemic actually timed perfectly. And they ended up basically closing their branches during the pandemic. Um, and so like, it made it easier for the member transition because they kind of thought it was just because of the pandemic.

But there, she was like, no, we’re like bored and I had been working on this for a long time beforehand. But to your point, Bo, like that was, they kind of had some conversations about, [00:41:00] they were like, Hey, look, like we’re trying to be all things to everybody and it didn’t work. And we are struggling to be operationally efficient with the overhead of branches and people and all of the things that come along with that. What if we just do something different? What would that look like? And what I think was really cool is Melanie will tell you it was actually her board that said, what if we went branchless? Like, what would that look like? What would that mean? And she was like, well, timeout, let’s unpack that. What would that mean?

What would that look like? And that led to a series of really deep conversations. And ultimately, she moved their credit union to a full digital only credit union. And they’re killing it. Right? And her and her team are having a lot of fun. Yeah. Oh.

Bo: let’s, let’s shut all of our branches. There’s a [00:42:00] lot of folks that would kill it right there. And they don’t even get to the conversation about what does that look like? We walked our, we hired an improv comedy group a couple years ago to join for our client meeting.

And we walked all of our clients through an improv class, and one of the games we played was Yes, And. And an example is, you sit in a chair and someone else is sitting next to you, and they have to say, The grass is blue and the sky is green. You obviously know that’s wrong. And you say, Yes, And, and you build on that story.

And the whole point of that was, well, let’s shut all of our branches. You could kill that idea right there by saying, that’s stupid, that’ll never work. Or you could say, what if we did shut all of our branches? What if we did this? And it may not be the thing, but if you don’t explore it, you’re never going to find that idea.

And I think that’s so important to keep the conversation going. You may blurt out this one big, bold thing, [00:43:00] but if you kill it, nothing’s ever going to come of that.

Josh: Yeah. You know what I think? Um, I’m sure you’ve heard, there’s, there’s kind of a, a tag along idea to that, which is, you know, to ask the five whys and just kind of keep asking why and why. Um, and so yeah, it’s like, so when the board says something like, Hey, we should go branches. Why? Like, tell me more, let’s unpack that.

When you start to have those kinds of deep conversations, I agree. I think that’s when you get to kind of the. I’m going to talk about the radical like light bulb at the end and funny enough this actually brings us all the way back to, you know, what you were saying when I was, I was writing your introduction is you were like, I kind of had this realization that I just don’t want to have like chit chat, small talk anymore. Like you pass somebody in the grocery store and they’re like, Hey, how are you? good. How are you? [00:44:00] Good. And that’s like it. You know what I mean? It’s like there’s kind of these social norms that we have around small talk But you don’t really actually learn anything from it. You don’t you don’t actually build anything out of it And so, you know, you were talking about how you you want to actually say, okay, you know what, you know what?

Like we’re gonna talk we’re gonna talk

Bo: Yeah.

Josh: Like and we’re gonna create a safe space to have really truthful conversation And that’s what you have to build to be able to have conversations at your credit union, at your board to say, is what we’re doing today the thing that we need to be doing today and tomorrow?

Or do we need to think differently? And without kind of creating all of that, you’re just having small talk, you know, like, how’s the credit union doing? Yep. Good. Yep. How’s the board doing? Yep. Good. Good. Good. All right. Great. Great. Great. Great. Board meeting over, you know?

Bo: five minutes, rubber chicken time.

Josh: How’s the credit union doing?

Really shitty. We’re struggling. [00:45:00] We haven’t gained any new members in the last 12 months. Why? What’s going on? Let’s unpack that. Right? Like that’s an

Bo: of my favorite questions is, Tell me more. That is my favorite question. When, you know, when you get a short answer from someone, tell me more. Unpack that. And it’s amazing. It’s almost going back to the way you were talking about the five whys. You start to get a little bit deeper when you can engage in that.

Yeah, that’s

Josh: especially if we’re talking about like a credit union and having to you know, think about, um, staying, relevant and in business in a very challenging environment right now, that’s going to come from the leadership level, right? So your leadership kind of has to be able to lead with some emotional intelligence to be able to foster those kinds of conversations, right?

Bo: Gosh, which one of the twenty ways do you want me to [00:46:00] go with that? That opened so many different cans of

Josh: all of the above.

Bo: you know,

Josh: Tell me more.

Bo: the

Josh: hmm. Mm hmm.

Bo: tired. And I don’t want to have the conversation, just let me get through these next three years and retire, and you figure this out. Or, I don’t, I’m out of my, my comfort zone now, I don’t know technology, but I know we need to add it.

I’m just done, let’s just merge with someone who’s, who’s doing it. Um, you know, there’s so many, so many ways to go with that. Where, You could just fail. The easy thing to do would be to give up. Because you look at, you know, the hours that Ryan is pulling. Or the, you know, I think of Pamela and what she’s, you know, working with and through at Maple.

I could just go be a [00:47:00] VP of lending at another credit union and not have to deal with this crap. And my life would be easier. then that decision’s all about. Me, and not my 5, 000 members, too.

Josh: I tell you what, Beau, that’s a really dangerous conversation, right? I’m

Bo: I love living on the edge.

Josh: I know. And I, I, I, I, so this is why I, I love having people like you as guests on the podcast, right? I don’t know about you. I, again, I think we, we probably think pretty similarly on this, so I’m in a safe place to say it, but I have this conversation with my wife all the time, Beau, or I’m like, Hey, you see this like on paper, In 10, 15, 20 years, that’s going to be me. And I don’t respect the things that they’re doing right now. Don’t let me become that. Like, keep me, like, [00:48:00] I got to remember this stuff. Like I’ve got to remember these examples. And like I said, like, that’s a really dangerous conversation where we’re talking about, you know, people who are at the highest level of leadership and are like, look, man, I got three years left. I just want to pack this thing in. We’re not doing any changes like, you know, I hate to say it, man, but how many times have you heard like, Oh, we’re not doing a core conversion while I’m around, I got three years left. Like I’m not going through that. I’m like, you’re creating, you desperately needs to go through a core conversion.

You are hamstringed.

Bo: joke about this when I hear this in strategic planning and a CEO says We need to think about a core conversion. I said, well, when’s your retirement date? That’s my next question because it’s always If if we’re doing the core conversion here, my retirement date is six months before that.

Josh: Yeah,

Bo: I’ll sign the contract.

I’ll take the credit for it You figure it out. I’m not going through a core conversion.

Josh: I know. But I’m like, but that’s what I mean. It’s like, that’s so challenging too. It’s [00:49:00] so easy. I feel like it’s so easy for me to say that while I’m sitting here in my position. Right. But when I’m three years from retirement, Am I going to be the guy that’s like, we’re not taking on that project. Uh, like I know what that means for me.

That means nights and weekends. And I have worked way too hard and long in my career to work nights and weekends anymore. Like, is that going to be me? Right. And I’m not gonna

Bo: And that’s not a blanket statement. I think the second credit union we ever worked with, uh, Pat West, she went I love Pat. She’s taught me so much about the industry. She’s been retired about 10 years now. But I remember her last few years. She always said, I’m going to leave this place better than I found it.

And she never took her foot off the gas. She built a beautiful new branch. With a coffee shop inside of it, like, she was always, you know, one step ahead of everyone else, and they were tiny at that point, I think she was about 40 or 50 million in assets, and, and she retired. But she [00:50:00] never took her foot off the gas, she was always saying, up until my very last day, I’m, I’m doing this thing.

So I don’t want to make a blanket statement and say every CEO that’s three years away from retirement is just, you know, sitting on the couch watching I Love Lucy episodes and, and, Checking the watch. Can I leave now? Uh, but I, unfortunately, I do see it.

Josh: Yeah, I think that’s, that’s a really important point to make Beau is, you know, a lot of times, especially when we’re talking on, on a podcast or something like this, right? Like we, we use the statements for shock value. We use the statements to make points, right? But I agree. I mean, I see, I don’t even know how I would quantify a percentage of either way, but I actually would say at least.

It’s a higher percentage for the positive than the negative of this. But yeah, absolutely. I see CEOs that are like six months away from retirement and they are going out guns a blazing bust in their butts making sure that that team and culture [00:51:00] and you know, everything from processes to products to tech stack to messaging like is, is as good as they could possibly leave it in.

And then we see the other side of it too, right? And it’s, um, yeah, that’s going to be with anything, right? We’re all human. And, and kind of back to the point that I was making, like, I talked to my wife about it all the time. I’m like, please don’t let me be that. Like if you ever see that, but even then I struggle with the, well, this is how we’ve always done it.

Even though I literally have a mantra for my team. That’s like, if the answer to the question of why are we doing it this way is because that’s how we’ve always done it. Like if that’s the answer within my team, it should automatically get questioned and say, is it still the right way to do it? But even then, like I’m absolutely guilty of not following through with that.

I’m absolutely guilty of sometimes when new things come out or new technology. I mean, I remember the first times we started playing with [00:52:00] AI years ago. And I was like, ah, I was like, Oh, hold on a minute, dude. Like, if that’s your attitude, you’re on the wrong side of this. I was like, you better, you better change your tune real fast.

Right. But we get caught in those, we get caught in those, those, you know, human traits of ourselves and like, you know what, no, I’ve got this figured out. I know how to do it my way. I don’t want to try and figure out something new. And then you’re like, you know what, the only way. To evolve is, to evolve, you gotta innovate, you gotta think differently.

Times

Bo: my word of the year this year is curious.

Josh: go the way of the

Bo: And, and I, I specifically pick that. Uh, you know, think of the word curious. It’s, it’s my mantra this year. Uh, thinking about AI. There’s so much going on with it in marketing right now. How do we use it as a tool? And if our mindset is, this is going to replace us, this isn’t for me, it’s going to replace you.

If you say, how do I embrace this to [00:53:00] do my job better? And I go all the way back to the late 90s when I was in radio. And we were still, we had CD players in there, we had cart machines, we had reel to reel in the studio. And I remember when the engineer came in to put the first computer in the studio. And the Krusty Morning Show guys with, with their gray hairs said this stupid evil computer and they, they hated the thing.

It’s going to take our job. Well, it did take their job. But then there were people like me and I, I, this is why I’m so adamant about, you know, my word of the year this year being curious because I don’t want to be those guys. I want to look at AI this year and be like, what cool stuff can we do with that to make our work better?

To be more efficient and be better stewards of our client’s time. Instead of just saying, no, no, no, this thing is going to take our job, be curious about it and let’s figure it out. Because I, I remember so many times as a young 20 [00:54:00] something making a very, very bold statement. I will never fill in the blank.

And then 15 or 20 years later, I’ve got to eat those words. Because I find myself doing this thing I said, I’ll never do. So just embracing the curiosity and, you know, being open to stuff.

Josh: You know, it’s, uh, it’s funny, I, uh, Uh, back to like some, you know, brutal transparency, you know, I think one of the things I’ve tried to embrace a lot more of AI for is what are the things that I really want to do? I just don’t think I have time for. I found that to be a really good like litmus test for, can I use AI to help with this? And but literally like we were just saying. Um, you know, how many times do you fall prey to the thing that you’re preaching against? I’m not even kidding though, right on my whiteboard right here next to me. It’s probably is a, I have a, um, uh, like a glass [00:55:00] whiteboard that I just use dry erase marker on.

It’s where I take a lot of my like notes or things I need to follow up on, et cetera. So it’s right in front of my face. This one’s probably like so etched into my whiteboard that it probably is not a dry erase anymore. It’s probably like a permanent fixture. And I’m looking at it. I’m like, you dingbat. I know how I can use AI to help me get that off my whiteboard. But it’s been sitting there forever, literally like just this conversation gave me that realization, right? So it is. It’s just about thinking about things differently sometimes and being able to say like, Oh, you know what? I know how I was. I was thinking about solving that, but that was using yesterday’s tools.

Yesterday’s thought process. I know how I can solve that with today’s tools and today’s thought process. And I know how I can get that off my whiteboard.

Bo: Bringing it back to some credit union philosophy. One of my favorite sayings, I’m going to butcher it, it’s not going to be verbatim. Uh, Louise Herring had [00:56:00] said, we’ve got to remember what we started out to do and find the modern techniques to do. And I think it was like back in the 60s she said that. And I can’t think of anything more relevant today for credit unions to look at and say.

Let’s not stray from our why, but let’s be relevant today and use the technology we need to and, and policies and processes and, and be better today with it.

Josh: Well, and that kind of brings us back to what you were talking about earlier. Um, opening up the can of worms of like leading with emotional intelligence, right? I would say that’s a great example of leading with a really high emotional IQ is, all right, like why are we here in the first place?

Bo: Yeah.

Josh: then how do we stay true to that? and not change that. But how do we change to continue to do that in a different world?[00:57:00]

Bo: You, you, you asked me what drives me. Reading drives me. And there’s an awesome book that I read maybe once a year just to give me perspective. It’s called Kill the Company. And it walks you through this exercise of, let’s pretend that, that you left your company and you were starting out to put your company out of business.

You were creating this new thing. And you write this business plan because you know the weaknesses of your company. If you’re doing it, like, from the heart, for real, you know, not just,

Josh: Hmm.

Bo: you know, everything’s fine. You write this business plan and then you compare that to what you’re doing. And you really start to get the heartburn of, wow, what if a competitor actually did this?

We’d be screwed. And, and you either say, let’s pack it up. We could never do this. Or you start fighting like hell to figure out how do we shore up these things and make sure someone doesn’t come in and eat our [00:58:00] lunch for us.

Josh: Yeah. So apply that to what do you think are some of the challenges that small credit unions are facing right now that is making it hard? To be under 10 billion. What do you think are some of the challenges and maybe some ways of thinking about how to at least have the right dialogue within your credit union to set yourself up for a path for success?

Bo: Mindset and perspective. I’m really going to just. Make it sound way easier than it is. Uh, but I think it goes back to technology and relevancy. Uh, you know, there, there was a point that there was a credit union, someone had applied for membership, and they got denied. And they were like, what? What do you mean I got denied?

Well, they, they didn’t really have a lot of debt. They had one credit [00:59:00] card they paid off, and one of the questions And the online account opening thing was, what is the balance of your credit card? They didn’t know. They pay it off every month. They just, so the, the online application denied the membership.

The credit union never followed up. So when they’re saying, we’re not growing members, yet there’s people trying to become members. Our technology is subpar and we don’t question it. You know, that’s one example of, You’re under 10 billion. They’re not having any joy. If you look at their numbers, there’s no joy in that credit union.

And, you know, it’s curiosity. What does that look like today? We can’t afford to. To me, it’s mindset.

Josh: I think

Bo: It’s pure mindset. We could never invest 100, 000 in this technology. [01:00:00] Because as a board member, if I’m a teacher, if I’m a bus driver, if I’m a factory worker, to me, my personal bias is 100, 000 is a lot of money.

We could never afford that. But when you’re sitting on 13 percent capital, you could take 100, 000 and go flush it down the toilet and your capital would never be impacted. So, to me it’s mindset, perspective, and decision making.

Josh: it’s a really good perspective on that. Um, I, I really agree because I think, um, to your point, right? Like the, the world is changing. significantly. And if you look at the average age of members, and again, I don’t want to classify everybody in the same category, but let’s just say it’s on the higher end.

Okay. In terms of age. And that’s also where the vast majority of your credit union’s assets live is with those aging out members. [01:01:00] Well, I don’t mean to sound morbid, but let’s have the tough conversation. What happens when they die? They’re going to, we’re all going to. They’re going to die. What happens when they die? Where, one, are their deposits going to go? Who’s going to get them? Okay. They’re either going to do what I keep trying to tell my dad to do, Beau, but I know he’s just never going to listen. Um, hopefully they do what I keep telling my dad, which is die without a penny to your name. Like, I want nothing. You worked hard for it.

You enjoy it. Like, you get down to those final years, like go take that trip to Greece you’ve always wanted to take. Right? Like, I don’t need that money. Um, so hopefully it’s that maybe, but then all those assets are gone, they spent them all. Or they die with some assets. Who gets them? And where do they bank? Is it with your

Bo: It is a ticking time bomb.

Josh: Right. Now, hopefully there’s a lot of stories like [01:02:00] yours where, you know, you saw your dad’s, you know, experience with a credit union and you became a credit union member and had your own experience and that gets passed down. Right. But by and large, our younger generations are heavy digital.

But what I find really interesting about our younger generations. And again, we can’t, can’t classify them all. They’re not all, you know, eating Cheetos in mom’s basement. But I think a lot of what you’re seeing in the younger generations is this really strong desire to shop local, to shop small, to be community and impact oriented.

And there’s a lot of data that supports. That younger consumers spend their money and want to do business with businesses that aligned them culturally, philosophically, morally, et cetera, right? If you think about it, [01:03:00] credit unions like check Mark, the biggest box and that one from financial services, right?

Bo: We’re just not telling that story.

Josh: We’re not telling the story, but to Venmo is just making it too darn easy. From a technology standpoint. And so, you know, you’ll see this research time and time again. I know like Cornerstone has done, some phenomenal research in this area that these younger consumers especially really want to do business with like a credit union, but nine times out of 10, they choose a FinTech or a neobank or something.

It’s not even traditional financial services like Venmo. Simply because of technology. And what I think is interesting about that is it’s, I argue, way easier for a credit union to change its technology than for Venmo to change its culture and philosophy of how it takes care of you and your community.[01:04:00]

Right? So people are clamoring to do business with you. We’re just making it tough.

Bo: So here’s, uh, I know we’re getting close on time. I’ll just throw this grenade in the middle of the conversation. We’ll leave it where it lies. Our legacy cores are not doing us any favors with our credit unions that want to invest in technology. And, you know, as a 50 million credit union, what, what core do you go to?

Who’s going to listen to you, who’s going to be an advocate for you and help you with your technology. That’s, that’s a big battle.

Josh: Yeah, I mean, Bo, this is why I, like, Hey, I’ll stick my stake in the ground, man, and this is not a shameless plug for me. This is, uh, if you’re a credit union, you are trying to sell future [01:05:00] members on a relationship. Why are you having transactional relationships with your vendors?

Bo: Yes.

Josh: They should be relational relationships. Cause I’m with you, man. If you want somebody that’s going to help you ask the tough questions, that’s going to help you push the envelope, that’s going to have a seat at the table for you. You can have that with very big companies. Don’t get me wrong. It’s just, that’s got to be the culture of that organization, right?

You could be the size of, you know, any of the big names in our industry and have a culture of it. And I would argue there’s a handful to do right. There’s also a bunch that don’t. Um, and so are you choosing to do business with providers that are going to build a relationship with you that are going to ask okay, like, what are we doing this next year?

Like, what’s going to actually move the needle for you? How are we going to help? Um, cause that’s how you’re going to really succeed is you’re reliant on these partners. And I think this boat, if, [01:06:00] if you’re, if you’re open to talking about it quick is, I think. One of the interesting like elements of that whole, there’s no joy under 10 billion in assets.

It’s because it is way easier if you are a 20 billion asset size credit union, right? You go fill out a demo request form on anybody’s website with like an EVP, EVP title and above. I guarantee you, you’re going to have that vendor buzzing like mad. They’re all going to be talking about you like, Oh my gosh, can you believe so and so reached out like rally the troops, get everybody ready.

Let’s get on planes. Let’s go man. You know, right.

Bo: They’ll be on a flight in your office tomorrow.

Josh: got an entire team to be able to implement that solution. You’ve probably got a good size budget to do it, right? But if you’re a 50 million credit union, that conversation is going to be a little bit different.

Let’s just be honest. But this is where I think it gets really interesting while it’s challenging. If you’re up for the challenge. I actually use [01:07:00] Melanie, I use Tracy from Pioneer like probably far too much, she’s probably sick of me doing this at this point, but, um, like these two ladies in specific are just badasses to me, though, because they’re really, really intelligent about, they’ll do Any combination of things where maybe they’ll get five or six small credit unions to all go talk to the vendor at once be like, Hey, look, I’ll give you five logos and I will do a video testimonial for you and I’ll be a reference call for you anytime you need. And they’re like, so I can’t afford you otherwise. But how about now? Can I get it now? Right. And these two ladies have been just rock stars at getting some technology that on paper, like their credit union shouldn’t have access to or shouldn’t be able to afford. And not only do they have it. I’d argue they had it before a lot of credit unions 10 times their size because they were just able to move fast, execute, have a [01:08:00] direction, be willing to change and then get after it because they’re hungry.

So I think kind of back to the whole purpose of this whole episode, right, is I think it’s really challenging to be a small credit union, but there’s a lot of joy if you’re up for the challenge.

Bo: To me it’s no different than running a small business. You’re going to work harder in a different way than the CEO of Microsoft. Like Ryan, you know, he’s going to be on a call doing work while he’s taking his kid to hockey practice. That’s not very sexy for a family man, but it gets the job done and he sees the joy on the other side of it.

And I think that’s where the joy comes from is the outcome. It’s not in the, the, the daily, you know, dealing with examiners and worrying about technology and, you know, staffing is a big thing these days. That’s, that’s not where the joy is. But if you’re [01:09:00] willing to stick through that piece of it and you hear those member stories and you see the outcome that there, there’s a ton of joy in that elbow grease that goes into it.

Josh: I couldn’t agree more. Well, Bo, um, thank you so much for just the opportunity to have this conversation. I think this is one of the things that also gets me really fired up about this industry is just, there’s people like you that are so incredibly passionate about what we’re doing that you’re willing to have really open and honest conversations and take time out of your day to do it. So I just, I want to say genuinely how much I’ve appreciated this opportunity and getting to meet you and make a friend out of this whole thing all from a LinkedIn post. So it’s a cool world we live in. Yeah.

Bo: and, uh, and we, we had this dialogue. This has been great. I love it.

Josh: Well, so before I let you go, two final questions. [01:10:00] So where do you go to stay up to date on what’s happening in the industry?

Bo: My clients won because that’s the heartbeat. Uh, they, you know, they’re, they’re small. They, they know what’s going on. I love to pepper them with questions. And just check in with them. Uh, Callahan is probably another one. When it comes to data, when it comes to, what are the trends, you know, what, every number separately says something, but when you can put that together and really start to create a story around it, uh, you know, they, they always come in handy.

I call it our credit union bible, and we can log in there and just look at data and poke around at what’s happening.

Josh: Yeah, that’s a really good point. I like that point, especially for this conversation that we’ve had, right? There’s, there’s no lies in the data sometimes.

Bo: Yeah.

Josh: Um, well, last but not least, and probably the more important one, um, especially with a personality like yours that really encourages kind of the, the deep [01:11:00] conversation.

Um, if People like me want to actually be able to have a conversation with you and talk to you about kind of the challenges and opportunities of our industry and your perspective on that. How can people, one, get in touch with you and how can they learn more about your company?

Bo: Sure. Our website is yourmarketing. co. You can start there, but LinkedIn is a great place. Find me on there if we’re not connected already. Message me. One of my favorite things to do is early in the morning with a cup of coffee, get on a call like this and just chat and get to know folks and ask questions and gain perspective or maybe in the afternoon with an adult beverage too.

It’s fun to just get together, throw a question out there and see where it goes.

Josh: I love it. Bo, again, thank you so much for taking the time. Um, thank you for having the dialogue and thanks for being a guest on the Digital Banking Podcast.

Bo: Thanks for the invitation, Josh. I appreciate it.

Josh: Anytime.

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